Rob gives his top career tips on Radio 3WBC 94.1FM

In this special episode of the Love What You Do podcast, the roles are reversed when Rob is interviewed as a guest by Mithzay Pomenta as her guest on radio 3WBC 94.1FM.

In the interview Rob gives plenty of useful career tips on networking, LinkedIn, job interviews, resumes, cover letters and how to land your next role.

About The Interviewer

Mithzay is a Clinical Sociologist and Registered Counsellor coaching people to find clarity and develop a strong sense of identity by addressing three key areas: Knowing and understanding yourself, building strong and healthy relationships and fulfilling your potential.

Interview Transcript

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:00:03] Hello, everybody, welcome to the Rotary Community Radio Show. This is 3WBC 94.1FM. This is the voice of the inner east. I’m Mithzay Pomenta. Here with me today I’ve got Robert Cugno. Robert is a career coach and founder of Future U Coaching, where he helps people identify the jobs that best suit them and land those jobs so they can return to the workforce and be happy. So I’ve invited Rob today, in light of the challenges that we’re facing with covid in the losses of job, and so much attention that we’ve been stuck in this for such a long time. And I thought that he could share some of his experiences. Give us some tips. How do we go about landing those jobs at this point in time? Welcome to the show, Rob.

Rob Cugno: [00:00:49] Thank you. It’s great to be here. I’m really excited to be speaking with you. Thank you.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:00:54] No worries. It’s great to have you here. So tell us a little bit about your experience and what led you to career coaching in this area?

Rob Cugno: [00:01:00] Well, I’ve had an extensive twenty two year career in higher education, but in that space, I mean, in that time I had numerous jobs. I started as a very humble criminologist and had lecturing experience. I had teaching experience. I also worked in the TAFE sector. And in the end, I managed to climb up the ladder to a director level at a local university. And I loved what I did. And in that time I had seventeen different jobs. But in that career I had very few job interviews. I was very fortunate in that space because I had people around me. I had a network that was quite powerful and influential who were able to refer me to new exciting opportunities. It was it was great. And it’s interesting because government research tells us that today in Australia, fifty per cent of all jobs are passed on through that process of word of mouth through that referral.

Rob Cugno: [00:01:56] So I realized about five years ago, I started to get a bit distressed by the role that I was in, and I realised it was because I’d shifted away from what I truly loved doing. I’m a teacher at heart. So as a consequence of that, I was far removed from teaching my direct role and so caught up in the administration of the university that I realised that it was no longer for me. And so I made a conscious decision to try something different. I looked back on my career and I thought, look, I’ve had an amazing career and I’ve done some very specific things. I call it my career system. So I thought maybe if I can create that system and put it into words, put it into a coaching program and help other people advance their career or use that system to find their dream career, which is one of the key things that I talk to people about. In these times, I believe that my system is really powerful in helping people and the next job opportunity,

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:02:57] Because I think that that’s part of what happens from isn’t it? Like people feel disconnected or feel like they don’t even know where to start. And I guess there’s so much tension and stress because of the situation that they’re in that they do kind of need the sense of where do I start? What are some key things that I need to know? What do I need to focus on and things like that. It’s interesting what you’re saying about the referral side of things, of how many jobs are actually found in that way and how many people might actually feel like they’re disconnected or they belong to a network that’s associated to them, to what they’ve always been doing. So they can’t actually move away from from that. I think that makes it more difficult, doesn’t it?

Rob Cugno: [00:03:36] Yes, you’re right. We we all have a network. The first thing, though, is that most of the people I’m working with don’t actually recognise their network. They don’t see their network. So even before we start thinking about is it the right network for you, the first question is who is your network? And you I have people to say, now I’ve got 600, 800, 2000 on LinkedIn. That’s great. They’re connections, they’re not network. The way I operate is I encourage my clients to identify and connect with five or six of the most influential people they know to help them get to where they want to get to. So if you are if you work in the public service, there’s no point having a network where your most influential people are in the banking sector. Yes, they’re part of your network. But unless you want to get into banking, they’re not going to be very helpful. So the key is identify the key people in your network that can help you get to where you want to get to. That’s step number one, recognize who they are. Then it’s a case of building the relationship with them, which is actually the easy part. It’s the identification that’s always quite tricky.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:04:45] So what if you don’t have known people in that network of where you want to be? What do you do there then? How do you how do you go about building that, finding it?

Rob Cugno: [00:04:55] That’s part of the skill. It’s about identifying those people and reaching out. And then one of the things I tell people is be where they are. If you have a network or you want to connect with a particular network, be where they are, whether it be on LinkedIn or whether it be on Facebook or whether it be that the network you want hangs out at a particular restaurant or a particular bar and connect with people to get you to get the introductions. I find that the best way to connect with people who can help you but you don’t know them is through a LinkedIn strategy that involves not only connecting with them, but sending in a message and starting a conversation with them and being up front. One of the good things about LinkedIn is most people know that it’s a network and somewhere down the track they’re going to they’re going to want and will help someone get to where they want to get to because they know that that’s happened to them or it will happen to them. That’s just the karma of LinkedIn. You need to take the first step. You need to understand who these people might be and reach out to them.

Rob Cugno: [00:05:54] What you’ll find is that often there is someone in your network that can give you that warm introduction to these people that might help you with your career. Like, for example, when I worked in my role at the university, I’d always talk to my boss and say to my boss, when you go to this meeting or when this thing happens, can I come and would you mind introducing me to your bosses or introducing me to the vice chancellor? So it was a straight out request. And where appropriate, my boss would do that because he knew I was interested in growing my network. And as a consequence of that network, I got to a place where I became well known with a good reputation, or today we call it personal brand. And that helped me land many jobs that I would never thought I would be considered for. So use the people around you. I know this sounds terrible, but use them like a stepping stone or linkage to slingshot you into the next network because warm introductions are a really, really powerful way of building relationships.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:06:53] Yeah, well, I guess if you’ve built relationships of trust within the closed network, then it is, you know, sort of that they wouldn’t have any qualms in connecting you with someone else because they would really get to know you properly.

Rob Cugno: [00:07:05] And you know what? They’ll also not have no qualms in then referring you for a job opportunity they’ve heard about that’s not advertised. So long as you make it clear to your network that you’re open to these opportunities. So, it requires you to be honest. I used to say quite often to the people I networked with is if you hear of anything interesting, let me know. I’m not promising I’m going to apply for it. But at least they know Rob’s willing to take a risk, is willing to try something different. If there was a private conversation, they might ask: “I referred you to this job, would you apply it? I’m going to embarrass myself.” And then I would have the decision to make to say, yes, I will apply because I’m really interested or say, no, it’s not really where I want to go. That doesn’t hurt your network. What hurts your network is if you embarrass them. So don’t ever embarrass your network. But you can be honest with people and you can take you can create trusting relationships where you can speak honestly. And that was that is a real powerful thing, because then it creates the authentic you. And if you’re authentic and you’re true and you’re honest, most people have no qualms referring you, especially if you fit for that job.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:08:13] Yeah, exactly. And that’s it. It’s about taking care and nurturing that network. Be really careful with it and how you how you go about it.

Rob Cugno: [00:08:22] And I want to stress – it’s not 500 people. It’s your top ten. We all have friends and we all have friends that we sort of spend most of our time with. And they’re the ones where we’ve nurtured relationships over time. Same idea. You don’t need five thousand friends. If you’ve got a few good friends, then that gives you the sustenance you need. The same in networking – build a relationship with a small group of people at different levels of the business world who can refer you. And also, do not ignore your friends and family. They are very powerful part of your network. Do not ignore them.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:08:58] Great advice there. So, clearly it’s important to be on LinkedIn. That’s the platform that we need to focus on if we’re looking for work and we’re trying to transition or even if we’re not trying to transition, but we are looking for work.

Rob Cugno: [00:09:12] Yeah, I’ll give you three figures. I’ll give you three figures that will tell the story. 650 million LinkedIn members worldwide. 14 million members on LinkedIn in Australia alone. And this is the key – 90 percent of recruiters live on LinkedIn. But it’s not enough just to be on LinkedIn, you actually have to present yourself powerfully and consistently and accurately because if you want to be found, you need to be accurate in your descriptions about yourself. And one of the key things about LinkedIn is it uses keywords. It uses keywords relevant to your industry. And if you’re not using those words, if a recruiter is searching for somebody like you to fill a role and you haven’t used the right words, then you’re not going to be found. You’re not going to get that phone call or that tap on the shoulder because you won’t be found on LinkedIn when people are looking to fill places. So and that’s certainly a coaching program that proves to be very popular with my clients. Is that process of learning how to do that.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:10:18] It’s so important. It’s not just about opening an account and it’s about knowing how to word everything that goes on. And what do I need to put here? What what do I need to focus on? What do I need to leave out? Because I often think that what you leave out is just as important as what you put in. And so you’re making sure that you’ve got the right keywords that that will land you the right job or that will make you found. I guess that will make you stand out. Because if you’ve got the wrong keywords, you might generate traffic and you might get people looking at it. But they’re not the people you need. They’re not the jobs that you want, because just words that are not really, really specific to what you mean. So that’s important. So you’re saying you’ve got a training that does that?

Rob Cugno: [00:11:05] Yes, I have a program called the LinkedIn Makeover program, which looks at your whole profile. And it looks like there are things that people ignore which makes a difference. I’ll give you another statistic. You have seven seconds to make an impression on your LinkedIn profile. Seven, It’s not long! If you have the standard default background that LinkedIn has (you know, that blue one with all the dots connected?). Well, that’s  probably what 75 percent of people on LinkedIn have got. But what I encourage my clients to do is find a photo as a background that represents who they are. So I’ve got a CFO who was a client of mine. What he did is he put a photo, a really lovely photo in a background of a pen, looked like a spreadsheet document, a calculator, and you could look at that photo and straight away guy finance numbers and guess what? He is a Chief Financial Officer. But that photo is enough to stop people in their tracks. Then the second thing is have a professional photo of yourself in professional wear. Do not use a headshot from a party or a wedding just because you look good. No, have a photo of how you would look at work. That’s really they’re two really important tips. And I hope people will listen and that can help.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:12:21] Well, it’s good. It’s good for the community. So so basically what you’re saying is obviously you’ve got to have the keywords on what you’re typing in your description and in your roles that you’re helping. But you also need these visual keywords, these visual cues that people, when they look at your profile, they immediately can recognize exactly what you’re all about. Just this is these images that will be.

Rob Cugno: [00:12:43] Yeah, I use the phrase you have to stop the eyes, because if you stop this, you’ll stop the person clicking. And what happens with people once they’re clicking on LinkedIn, it becomes momentum. And then I say not a very good photo, a blue background, very black and thinking, oh, stop back. That’s different. When someone sees something different, it stops the eye and that gives you an extra three or four seconds. And that’s when the curiosity gets aroused. Oh, this person’s gone to the trouble. Oh, I wonder what this person does? And then that’s when you get people looking more deeply into you and either creating the connection or remembering you, or if the recruiter is using the keywords and you’ve got the right keywords with a good photo and a really engaging background, recruiters tell me that that shows them that people are focused on detail. So there’s a lot of psychological subliminal messages that having all the details ticked off, sends out to any prospective employer

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:13:44] Perfect! Some really good tips there. Really, really important in terms of your LinkedIn profile. And I’m sure that there’s more.

Rob Cugno: [00:13:51] Yes, there are plenty

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:13:54] More where that came from. OK, so what are what are some key challenges that you think people are facing during these times? What are the things that you think people are struggling with the most?

Rob Cugno: [00:14:05]  Right now? Confusion and fear. People are confused about what’s happening in the job market. There’s a lot of contradictory advice. There’s, you know, the government is very clear to get out a message that the unemployment numbers are coming down because that’s in their interest. And they are but they were so high that opening one store is going to make a difference in employment numbers. So confusion is a problem. And I don’t want to be a bearer of bad news. But I honestly believe that our unemployment numbers are going to be high, unusually high, probably until the end of. And what this means is for someone who is looking for work today, that means a whole lot more competition. So you need to  understand that. And I think that’s causing people fear. And some people are freezing in that fear. Some people are overreacting and applying for everything they see, which is not a good strategy either. And some people are just sort of like a rabbit in headlights and not acting. The reality is that there are jobs out there. There are jobs to be found, especially if you’ve been made redundant. But you just need to know how to go about doing that. And the other thing, the other big mistake that I think or the other thing that’s holding people back is just not knowing where to find the jobs and how to go about applying for them.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:15:21] That’s the thing. There is this perception, not just unemployment is rising, but that there is no work out there.

Rob Cugno: [00:15:27] The reality is we will open up. And what we’ve seen from the other states is that by opening up, jobs become available. One of the things I want to really caution people about is just because you had a job in a particular place and because of it, you had to shut down because of Covid, there’s no guarantee that you are going to be invited back into that very same role. Because understand businesses are now being thinking about how can we do things differently? What do we really need? What don’t we need? So you can almost become an inadvertent victim, but not by not developing yourself. So don’t assume that you’ve got a job because your boss three months ago said to you, don’t worry, I’ll look after you. They might not be able to. So you need to be open and aware and know what’s going on and recognize that, yes, there are opportunities out there, but you need to follow the right steps. And later on, I’ll explain the four key things you need to find jobs. And that’s crucial in this time. Knowing exactly what you’re doing is crucial at this time. And know where to look.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:16:36] That is very important. All right. Well, we’re going to go for a little break and we’ll come back right after this.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:16:43] This is 3WBC 94.1FM, we’re talking today with Rob Cugno from Future U Coaching. He’s giving us a lot of good information about what to do right now in this situation where many people find themselves unemployed, wanting to or needing to transition into a different type of role because their role is no longer there. So, Rob, welcome back.

Rob Cugno: [00:17:06] Great to be back. It’s been a great conversation so far.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:17:09] It has been so good, so interesting. So far, you’ve given us some really good tips about where to go. What do we need to do? We need to set a profile on LinkedIn and how you know, how we’re going to make that profile stand out and how important that is, how to work with the networks. There’s so many important, valuable insights that you’ve given us there. And just before we went to the break, you were talking about four pillars of finding a job.

Rob Cugno: [00:17:35] Three of these pillars have been in existence since time immemorial. And the other pillar is a recent innovation. But basically, if you are looking for a job at the moment, you need to focus on four things and four things only and get these right. One, have a powerful and engaging LinkedIn profile. That’s the new that’s the change. So one, a LinkedIn profile that tells your story, because one of the things with LinkedIn profiles is often employers will look at that profile before they shortlist. Even if they don’t use it to select. They will look at it just like they look at your Facebook. So have a really, really powerful LinkedIn profile and have a Facebook that doesn’t incriminate you with anything. Secondly, have an accurate CV. CVs are still the standard way of getting employed these days. You need an accurate CV. One of the coaching programs I deliver actually talks about having two types of CVs. There’s a CV you use for applying for jobs and there’s a CV you use as a marketing tool. And they are two different tools and we can come back to that. The third thing you need is an engaged network of champions who are willing to refer you with. We’ve touched on that a little bit. And the last thing you need is a strong interview skills. If you are good at those four things and you apply for jobs, that means that you can prove you can do, then there’s no reason why you shouldn’t get that job.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:19:04] Ok, brilliant. So a LinkedIn profile, an accurate CV, a how to network champions and strong interview skills. I’m really curious about the CV thing, though. Yeah, that’s an interesting insight that I hadn’t heard before. So you’ve got a CV that is more accurate, one that you use for applying for the job and then one that’s a marketing. Tell us a little bit more that.

Rob Cugno: [00:19:28] OK. So let’s talk about the CV you use for applying for jobs. And here let’s get even a little bit more specific. There are two different types of CVs you can use. If you’re applying for a job in an area that’s in your expertise and in a field that you’ve worked in or you’re applying for a job that’s a natural promotion for you because it’s consistent with your field, then you use what’s called a chronological CV, which is what 95 per percent of us use. And the chronological surveys, the one that outlines your purpose, your career overview, your skill sets, your job history in reverse chronological order. We know that. But a lot of people say to me how do I apply for a job that’s not even that helps me career change or transition into something different? How do I go from being a I don’t know, let’s be ridiculous, a baker to a banker?

Rob Cugno: [00:20:26] Well, there’s a different type of CV you use there, and that’s called a functional CV. And what you do that CV is you don’t highlight the jobs you have, you have had or the work you’ve done. You highlight the skills that you have that match the job role. So, if you’re in one industry and you’re applying for another industry where they’re looking for a leader, you don’t talk about what you’ve done in that industry. You talk about your leadership skills. That’s called a functional CV. So that’s the category for job applications, two types of CVs, chronological and functional. Then, there’s a CV you should use for marketing purposes. That’s the CV that you email out to people. That’s the CV that if you’re going to a networking event and you say, I’ll send you something about me, you can say that the difference between the two is that the marketing CV is the sort of CV that you can now create automatically through these new CV builders that are coming online.

Rob Cugno: [00:21:23] And these incorporate things like a photo of yourself. These might break up how you identify your skill set. So I saw a ripper the other day. Someone showed me their marketing CV and all their skills. They simply had a word and then they had stars. Four star, three star, five star. That’s a very engaging CV, it’s colorful. It lets you sort of represent your personality a little bit. That’s a marketing CV and that’s the CV you send out to people when you when you’re talking about an opportunity. Now, let me send you out a CV. The reason why you have both. Is that one appeals to people psychologically causes a connection. It helps people to recognize and like you and trust you. That’s the marketing CV. The job application CV is the one that gets through the scanner because as we know, Australian industry is moving more towards scanning CVs and looking for keywords. There it is again. And in that CV, the scanner does not recognise stars. It doesn’t recognise colour, it doesn’t recognise photos, it doesn’t recognise tables. It’s just a standard CV. So you need a standard CV that you will help you get through the scanning process of CVs. And you need a marketing one that’s the colours and the photos and the bells and whistles that you share with people just so those people have it with them, have it on board.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:22:48] That’s really good insight. So what about cover letters? Oh, my goodness. The nightmare of cover letters.

Rob Cugno: [00:22:55] There’s no nightmare. A cover letter is a cover letter. It should be no more than three or four sentences. And it’s the first thing that gets ripped off a CV. Don’t confuse cover letters with letters that answer key selection criteria. Your cover letter should only say who you are, that you’re excited for the job opportunity. And this is how you can contact me. That’s the only thing that you need on a cover letter. It’s not read. Generally, it’s not read because the information in a cover letter should be in your CV.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:23:20] You’re addressing the selection criteria within the CV. Is that what you’re saying?

Rob Cugno: [00:23:26] What I’m saying is if you’re asked to apply and answer key selection criteria, those answers are a separate document. That’s called your responses to the key selection criteria. That is not a cover letter. A cover letter is a cover letter. It’s almost like a plastic cover. No one cares. It’s just your name, your contact details and why you’re interested in this job. The feedback I keep getting and when I was employing people at some stage is I was leading some really big project teams. I get a CV – cover letter gone. If I hadn’t ripped the CV, the cover letter off, I will. All I’m interested in is the key selection criteria and the CV. So don’t waste time on a long cover letter and understand the cover letter is not your responses to the key selection criteria. And that’s the mistake people make.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:24:16] That is the mistake, because that’s why I think it was a bit nightmarish. Is that that idea that it’s going to get ripped off anyway? So why am I how am I doing this? And why would you ask for the selection criteria if you’re going to rip it off and then. Yeah, but now it makes sense that you’ve got the two that are separate. Perfect. All right.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:24:34] Look, what would you say are some key mistakes that people make when they’re looking for work and their changing career direction? I mean, right now, it’s not very optional. It’s not like people are choosing to change. Some people are forced to do it because there’s nothing else out there or the industry that they’re in right now is completely shut down. And it doesn’t look like it might come back exactly how it was. So, you know, you experience what are some of those things?

Rob Cugno: [00:24:58] OK, so the mistakes that I believe people are making right now is they’re lacking a strategy. I think people are not using their networks. I think people are passively waiting for jobs to become available rather than chasing. And I think people are not using experts where they can bounce ideas and get better at the job application process. Because I don’t know about you when you went to school, but when I went to school, there was no course called job application. We’ve never been taught that process. So there is a way of doing it. And that’s what career coaches do. That’s what professionals do. It’s like if you’re sick and you don’t go see the doctor, how are you going to get better? You’re not it’s like being a sports person and deciding, I’m not going to have a trainer. How are you going to get better? You’re not. The same with your career or your job search process. We are never taught that. No one teaches us a system of doing it. I do. But generally, we’re not taught a system of doing that. So I think the mistakes being made is people are not strategizing, they’re not using their network, they’re too passive and they’re not bouncing ideas off experts.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:26:02] Definitely important. That’s been so very useful. Those tips that you’ve given us to have had you in the show today. Got any final thoughts you want to share with us before we head out?

Rob Cugno: [00:26:14] Yes, I really want to leave people with this last thought because we haven’t touched on interview skills. A lot of people get very, very nervous when it comes to the interview. I used to -, what about yourself? Have you been nervous?

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:26:27] One of the things about interviews right now is they’re all happening online. And if you’ve got more than three interviewees, you can’t see them. They’re in this tiny little square box. And so you don’t know what gesture is on their face and you don’t know if they’re what they’re thinking is. Well, you never know what their thinking but you can’t even read their body language because it’s so tiny. So there’s so much more pressure now when you’re doing interviews online. On one hand, it’s because you’re you know, you’re in an environment that’s familiar to you, but that sometimes it’s just complex because it’s online.

Rob Cugno: [00:26:57] And that’s actually drove me to create an interview skills program that incorporates the how to do it online, because online interviews are here to stay. They will grow and the face to face will drop off. But I want to leave people with this message. The people that I work with who find interviews stressful are the people who take the exam mentality. They look at the interview as being exam. And an exam makes everyone nervous. I coach my people to look at it as a two way conversation. So an interview is not an exam. It’s a conversation – so treat it like that. So you can stumble and stop and stammer and you can you need to do the you know, the the body language thing to connect with people. So that’s tip number one. It’s a conversation. Calm down and take some breaths. Secondly, the purpose of the interview (a lot of people don’t actually understand the purpose of an interview) is to work out if you are the right fit for the role. If you are the right person for the team. Please understand that if you’re being interviewed, then the panel believes you can do the job.

Rob Cugno: [00:28:09] It’s your CV that lands you the job. It’s your CV that proves you can do the job. It’s the interview that determines if you are the right fit for that business. And most businesses will take fit above skill because they can teach you how to do the job. So make sure, when you’re in an interview, that you use the words that businesses use uses in its value statement, that you are clear about what you believe and how you will go about doing the role. And in an interview, be clear about your success stories. If you don’t have those things clear in your head, then you won’t do well and you won’t instill trust and confidence. And if you don’t instill trust and confidence, you will not be offered the position because that’s what the interview panel are looking for. They have to trust you that you’re the right fit and they have to be confident that you’re the right person.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:29:05] Excellent.That’s such good advice. Such good advice. Thank you so much for all that.

Rob Cugno: [00:29:11] You’re welcome.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:29:11] On that. On that note, I think we can come to the end of this interview, but I think it’s been so useful and so handy, I might actually have you back again talking a little bit further about these things. If you want to get hold of. Rob, he’s the founder of Future U Coaching and that’s you with “U” rather than with the word you,

Rob Cugno: [00:29:29] The letter U

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:29:30] And of course, you can find him on LinkedIn. And I have happy for people just to connect with you there.

Rob Cugno: [00:29:35] I’m happy for people to reach out with me in any way they like. And I’m one of the things that I love doing is having conversations. Oh, I’m not hung up on owning everything or selling everything. I believe people are important and building rapport and trust is important. So more than happy just to have a chat with people and see where they’re at. And and if I can help in any way, then then I’m doing my job. And that that’s awesome. And I just want to say thank you for your time and thank you to the audience for listening. It’s been it’s been a wonderful experience.

Mithzay Pomenta: [00:30:04] Thank you so much for coming along, Robert, for your wonderful insights into this in such a difficult time for everybody. All right. So we’re going to continue now with a bit more on the show. This is the Rotary Community Radio Show in three 3WBC 94.1FM. Thank you, Rob. And we’ll see you guys later.